Democracy and Class Struggle are posting this interview for people to hear the views of Alexis Tsipras of Syriza. Our Publication does not mean we endorse the views of the Syriza but we feel they should be widely discussed.
Interview with Alexis Tsipras of Syriza.
In past few months, Alexis Tsipras,
leader of the Greek left-wing
movement Syriza and widely tipped as the country's next prime
minister, has been on an international tour, trying to build a broad coalition
of support for his party's anti-austerity policies - and, perhaps, to convince
the world's political elite that a Syriza government is not such a terrifying
prospect. Last week was London's turn.
The New Statesman caught up with him at
the end of a busy schedule of meetings and talks, en route to see Tottenham
Hotspur play Fulham.
NS: You’ve just given two
lectures in London: one at the LSE, and one at Friends House, a well-known
venue for left-wing events. How did you find the audiences?
Tsipras: Both at LSE, where I expected
the audience to be a bit colder but it turned out that most were friendly, and
at the [Friends House] one organised by Syriza London, the participation was
amazing. At the second one I was surprised to see that almost 600 hundred
people turned up. And not just Greeks either, many were British.
And I think this means that Syriza is not
just a party with interesting positions, but a force that can bring change to
the political landscape of Europe – not just for Greece, but for all the people
who now need to reclaim their right to a decent society, justice and hope;
against those who want to see them subjugated to this austerity that doesn’t
just kill wages and pensions, but democracy itself.
Would you say you have
political allies in Britain?
I had the opportunity to meet with two
teams from the Labour Party: an official one headed by [Jon] Cruddas, the
party's head of policy-making, and another one with four to five Labour
MPs. I got the impression that the Labour party today is in soul-searching
mode, and the debate around austerity is on, so Greece is for them
an interesting case study. Bearing in mind that in previous years
they followed neoliberal policies, today Labour are deeply troubled about everything
that has happened in Greece and especially by the collapse of PASOK
[Labour's social-democratic Greek sister party]. They're following the
situation closely and I dare say they are one of the few parties so close
to power in Europe with whom we share a lot of positions and with whom we
can be in constant communication.
So Syriza can find common
ground with Labour?
It will depend upon how daring [Ed]
Miliband intends to be and especially when it matters most: during the
next elections when pressure from the mainstream media and oligarchs in
Britain start speaking of the "red dragon" that has come to
drive away the City and submerge us in inflation and poverty. Of course
this will depend not only on Miliband's endurance but also on the circumstances
under which this duel will take place. Because if elections are held in
2015, the two years in between will be apocalyptic as to the effects
of neoliberalism in Europe. Britain is already in depression. Nothing
is getting better. More and more people in Europe realise that
austerity is not a viable prospect. I hope people realise that there is no
other way but to radicalise even further.
Do you think there is
potential for something similar to Syriza in Britain? A party emerging from
outside the mainstream that will oppose austerity?
I can’t really know that. Every country
has its own characteristics and in Britain there's a long tradition of a
two-party system. If of course Labour wins the next elections and opts to
continue along Cameron’s tracks, then it’s almost certain that they will lose
every bond with the social classes that support them. The void left there will
certainly be filled by something new. That’s the way it works in nature and
that’s the way it works in politics.
At your lectures, you spoke
of the need for a "European people" in order to find a way out of the
crisis. Do you find the conditions are here for this to happen?
I think we are running a grave danger: to
focus our thoughts on the Greek people, on the British people, on the Italians,
like separate entities. The crisis threatens to drive us backwards, back to the
idea of the nation-state, and to the antagonism between those states that will
come about as an extension of neoliberalism, with false ideas of
competitiveness and so on.
On the other hand, we need to see the
actual solution: that in common problems, we need common answers. Europeans
have nothing to fight over. This stand-off is not between the British and the
French, the Greeks and the Germans. This is between the working class, the
unemployed and part of the middle class against predatory capital.
This brings us to something
current and highly relevant to what you were saying. What do you think about
what’s happening in Cyprus?
I think it’s unbelievable and
self-destructive.
I believe that in the next few days panic
will spread to the rest of southern Europe. It is a very risky choice they
[the troika] have made, and it proves they have no understanding of the
objective dangers facing the eurozone. They've chosen to have a
Eurozone operating under their rule, with the people subjugated,
threatened with blackmail like this. I think the only chance Cyprus has,
like other countries, is if the political system rejects this blackmail.
If they accept it, then there is no way back. Cyprus's economy will
be ruined, its banking system will bleed capital as depositors will
fear a second haircut, and this will spread throughout Europe.
On the contrary, if Cyprus resists, and
rejects this deal by protecting its banking system, it would send a strong
message of trust and credibility to the rest of the southern European
countries as well.
One of the first things your
opponents in the government said when details of the Cyprus bank levy came up
was to claim that one of your own MPs, Manolis Glezos, suggested something
similar recently.
Their claims are ridiculous.
They're made, though.
They [the Greek government] can claim
anything they want in their PR war. It’s the same team of people that has
ruined the country and they can use what they want to attack us.
Of course Manolis [Glezos] never said
anything like that. He spoke once about the possibility of a voluntary loan via
bonds exchange. His idea has nothing to do with the proposed involuntary
haircut imposed on Cypriot deposits.
Those who now govern us under the
neoliberal dogma, under the dogma of subjugation, will go for anything, they’ll
ask for no one's permission to take measures like that one. They will turn us
into Argentina [circa 2001] while at the same time proclaiming that their
target is to avoid exactly that. De la Rua [the former Argentine president] was
their ideological cousin anyway, and it’s likely a helicopter will carry them
away too, when the time comes for the Greek people to reclaim their rights and
bring back balance to our society, economy and lives. There’s no other possible
outcome.
But your opponents will claim
you are no longer that radical, and that you now resemble a centre-left party.
Well, it’s ridiculous that the same
people who claim that we aid terrorists, accuse us of becoming more timid at
the same time. They just spin it any way they can and hope it catches on.
So are you still radicals or
have you become a party of the centre-left?
Syriza is what it is: a radical,
left-wing party that feels the pulse of the times, knows what’s at stake and is
after a wide consensus and unity for political change in Greece. This is
something that departs from the narrow limits of the radical left.
And what of the transformations
Syriza is going through? Because there is certainly something changing.
We are going through a process, as
democratic as ever, and with the people’s participation it can only get better.
We already accomplished much. Last year no one would have thought that Syriza
could achieve this. Instead of factions, we are now a solid democratic party,
that operates with the same freedom of opinions as it used to. This will lead
to the formation of a new shape for us that will come about after our next conference
which is taking place soon.
Are you making moves in the
European scene as well?
We are looking into the new conditions
now forming. Our aim is for an international summit on the re-negotiation and
the cancellation of the debt of peripheral European countries. For this, we are
open to co-operation with forces outside the European left as well.
So you still claim you'll
"tear up the memorandum" and not just repay Greece's lenders at any
cost?
Our reasoning is that the memorandum has
already failed. It’s a disaster. We’ll put an end to it and replace it when in
parliament. We’ll proceed to renegotiate with our lenders with the prospect of
a reasonable, viable agreement that won’t just concern Greece, because this is
not just a Greek crisis. We’ve seen that the problem is systemic. This means
that when negotiations take place it won’t be Greece against the world but
rather, the European South against Ms Merkel.
Let's leave Europe for a
moment; what about the rest of the world? What came out of your recent tour of
South and North America, for instance?
This happened in the context of carrying
a message to the outside world: That Greece is going through a humanitarian
crisis and that it needs alliances with those powers that realise the danger
austerity carries for the entire planet. It’s in their best interests to
support Greece, not out of charity, but rather because they understand that
this catastrophic tragedy needs to stop. Through these contacts we've had the
chance to create such alliances, for today and for tomorrow.
Was something more specific
discussed in terms of trade? Cheap oil from Venezuela, maybe?
Well, I don't think there is any point to
get into so much detail. What matters is that a number of countries both in
South and in North America understand the the Greek program is not working and
a government of the left can provide a way out of it not just for Greece but
also for Europe. It will give a prospect of balance for the world economy as
well, because the real threat right now is the spreading of austerity and
depression.
Is the rumour true, then,
that the US is positive towards the possibility of Syriza coming to power?
That’s a comment I'd leave for you
journalists to make. The point is that the US are following a policy line
radically different from that which Angela Merkel follows and enforces
throughout Europe. The US have printed money, they intend to tax the rich in
order to avoid the fiscal cliff.
These are things that sees anyone who
dares to propose them in Greece and Europe, labeled an extremist, when at the
same time it's what Obama does. In that sense there are common elements, at
least more than in the past, in the applied economic policy. Geopolitics are
more complicated than that, I'm afraid.
One subject you seemed to
leave out of your talks was immigration, an issue that the far right has
exploited to frightening extent. What is Syriza's policy on this?
Immigration is one of the most important
issues on our agenda. The European South is an entry point and we need to look
into a wider solution. It's unfair for entrance countries to be forced into
taking all the weight of the issue. Dublin II [the EU-wide agreement on asylum
seekers] strips away the right of immigrants and refugees, to leave the country
with proper documentation. They don't want to stay in a country where they
can't get a job, but they are forced to.
So we need to examine what kind of Europe
we want from now on: Do we want a Europe based on solidarity where hardships
are equally distributed? Or do we want a Europe where the south is used as
storage space for poor souls and the north lives on comfortably? We are
approaching this both on an institutional level, trying to force a treaty
change, but also through a humanitarian perspective. We can't treat those
people who arrive to our country like second-class citizens.
And especially for those kids who are
born in Greece, we say nothing different than what Britain does: they should be
able to get Greek citizenship. They take part in Greek education, they speak
Greek and they know no other home. We need to see the future in a multicultural
Greece, much like the way Britain worked it out, successfully in my opinion.
So, for a last question: how
important is your role as the face of Syriza?
Faces and personalities are important
sometimes, but it's social conditions that create the context for them to act.
I’ve been saying the same things for three to four years. The people
accepted the message now, not because I changed it. I believe history will be
written by those people, not leaders, despite the role leaders have to play in
this.
Follow Yiannis Baboulias on Twitter @YiannisBab and Daniel Trilling @trillingual
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